A reply to a topic concerning forgiveness:
*I read here regularly, but usually take in what I read and digest it,
without reply.
I would like to weigh in here.
I am shocked to say the least at the idea of allowing a sexual predator to
remain amongst the innocent souls that tempt him or her as the case could
be. I don't believe it has a thing to do with forgiveness, I believe it has
everything to do with protecting the children in our watch-care.
I know this from personal experience, not in the church situation, but at
home. The step father molested my 3 year old granddaughter. He was
instantly removed from the home. He is in jail now. The granddaughter, now
10 years later, continues to have nightmares, continues to fear he is out
of jail and will come do harm to her.
Initially, my first impression, my first thought was let me at the *bleep,
bleep, bleep* and he will never touch another person regardless of their
age. However, years of walking with the Lord and years of recovery work on
my own self and years of attending a self help program for families and
friends of alcoholics have taught me that 'vengeance is mine saith the
Lord', unforgiveness only hurts me and is the scum worth my spending a life
time in jail?
Still to actually forgive him was hard coming--and it didn't involve the
belief that what he did was ok or that he could return to the home front
upon his release. Forgiveness meant I no longer allowed the anger to reside
in my heart, instead I turned my feelings and this person over to God who
is much better able to handle the situation. However, he will never be
welcome here, he will never be allowed to come here, to come within a
certain distance from the child he marred for life. This isn't because I
don't forgive him, it's because God gave me enough sense to not knowingly
put these children in danger.
God says I am to forgive. God does not tell me to lie down in the den with
the wolves. God gives me reasonable sense to take the steps to protect
myself.
On the flip side of this forgiveness thing--one of our esteemed church
members went off on another one Sunday night, in our Discipleship Training
class. She accused the woman of infidelity, of being a lesbian, (which she
isn't) called her a liar, threatened to kick a male member in the balls and
said most of us in the church were a pile of crap only she didn't use the
nicer word. This was a lady who was held in high esteem, knows the Bible as
well as any preacher, taught classes for years, very talented, very
successful. Yet the venom that spewed forth from her lips in that class
told a totally different story than what shows on the surface. She even
included her husband in a 3 some with the lady she was confronting; a tryst
that is supposed to have happened some 15 years ago.
Now, should we kick them out of church? I don't know what the protocol is
there. She hasn't asked for forgiveness. Her husband is a deacon and he did
not deny the accusation of being involved in a triangle. Forgiveness could
come easy to some and hard for others, I believe.
Some of us forgive easy, others hold grudges. I have struggled with
forgiveness but thanks be to God and His work in my life, I can forgive.
Can I continue to attend church with these people? I could. Can the woman
attacked do so? I don't know. Could I if I were the attacked? Yes, I could.
It would be difficult, but I would.
A recap of what happened in an email to a pastor:
The characters are B-the accuser; S-the accused, L-the other woman named and the husbands of all involved. B and S's husbands are also active deacons. S's husband is the chairperson or whatever they are called as the 'head' honcho in the deacons. He has to moderate business meetings in the absence of a pastor and make deacon announcements and he is the one we go to when problems arise.
B verbally attacked S in the class accusing her of taking the former secretary/treasurer's job from her. What happened was the church drew up by laws and determined the job needed to be split and the treasurer needed some means of accountability so elected a group of 5 capable of signing checks. Treasurer kept the books, wrote the checks, signers signed them. That way all were accountable. B stated she had more to say but would say it in private.
S invited her to come to her office-S being the secretary. (BTW, I am now the treasurer, the former treasurer quit when the changes were implemented) In our office, B accused S and L of being gay and having a 3-some with her husband, D-who is her 2nd husband, the first having divorced her.
After the private discussion which included in person L, the accused gay lover, her husband, B's and her husband, S and her husband, S invited those of us who were in the class to hear the rest of the story. Hence our involvement. That may have been wrong. I don't know.
I suggested that in the absence of a pastor, S talk with our Area/Associational Director which she did. The Director is familiar with B as she has caused problems in other churches in the area. In spite of her Biblical IQ, apparently it is mostly head knowledge and not heart knowledge. I personally know she studied for many years under the tape ministry of R.B.Thieme Jr from Texas. Are you familiar with him?
The director advised the deacons to speak with B's husband and ask him to step down as active deacon. He also advised that they as a couple be asked to quietly leave the church.
I am not sure I agree with the leaving the church part. I do with the deacon part. I agree with his stepping down as a deacon because when asked when/if he actually engaged in a 3some with S and L all he could do was snicker and lower his head. He did not admit or deny the act. In not denying he upheld his wife accusations.
I believe there is much going on beneath the surface with B and her husband-failed marriages for both, control issues, health issues, chronic pain and from where I stand a lot of jealousy. I believe were they as a couple to be willing to publically apologize, to agree to Christian counseling and to right their wrongs they could/should be allowed to remain in church. While I believe issues in the church should be addressed, I believe they should be done so with the utmost care, ever seeking to follow God's will in the matter and to handle matters in a Godly manner. I know I have done wrong many times in my life and I still do, but there were times in my life when my lifestyle did not reflect my walk with the Lord--well it did, my walk was non-existant and I demonstrated that. I would have been crushed had I been turned away from church. It was only through the loving acceptance of church members AND might I add, 20 years of Al-Anon (families and friends of alcoholics) that have brought me to where I am today.
I have been deeply hurt by church members. I continued to attend church with them and while I might not buddy up to them, I was able, by God's grace, to treat them with reasonable respect and courtesy. I believe this is what God wants us to do under such circumstances. So asking a couple to leave their church isn't something I can support.
My question or possibly questions are--am I being a weak Christian by allowing them or wanting to allow them to remain?
Where is the line that says this action requires expulsion and this one doesn't.
Isn't sin sin in God's eyes?
Are we in fact judging when we say a sexual sin deserves expulsion but a verbal attack on a person's character doesn't? Isn't the person violated in either act?
Lord, I wish we had a pastor. But given just what little I have shared with you here, can you or anyone even wonder why we don't have a pastor? *weak smile* Our last pastor came in August of '10 and left in July of '11. There were issues there too and not just with the members, but this has gotten long enough.
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Character is what we are, not what others think we are.
